Its part of the game, as long as he didn't use the recruitment channel or the help channel directly then whoever scammed him did nothing wrong.

Once you use money for a game item, that item no longer has a RL value. So saying the scammer stole 15/20 bucks from his is wrong. As to a "new" player talking in the help channel about being scammed, more than likely he's yet another scammer looking to dupe people into giving him isk.

Also, I kind of liked it better when Thomas Hurt would post obvious troll posts vs his new alt posting vague ones.

"They can't prohibit suicide ganking newbies without prohibiting suicide ganking in its entirity, since making special cases for new players adds excessive GM workload when everyone who gets suicide ganked regardless of how long they have been playing tries to get their stuff back under a vague provision."

And yet they ban for suicide ganking newbs. There's no reason they can't make a provision for scamming as well.

I assure you that people many years into this game still do incredibly stupid things.

But this opinion you have about scamming, ganking, and so on, does it apply to only noobs? Are more experienced players fair game, in your opinion? If so, how would you define a noob? Keep in mind that this definition has to avoid being gamed in order to confer protection to more veteran players.

If, for instance, all accounts under a certain age or SP couldn't be scammed, I would use alts that fit that description to do all my business. In fact, I would probably use those alts to scam other people in a way that could be played off as ignorance.

There are two ways to learn lessons: the easy way and the hard way and the poor kid got it in the hard way, as simple as that although i feel bad about the incidence in all

Some posts in this thread make me smile.

EVE is a harsh and unforgiving place... But you can't scam noobs. At the same time, it's perfectly OK if said noob goes and buys his first battleship, outfits it with nice bling, takes it to low sec and gets immediately blown up by a gate camp. What's that? He should know better than to take a BS into lowsec without a scout? Well, he should also know better than trade a PLEX with a random char in station too. And the contradictions just keep piling up...

You guys should really make up your minds. If you want the game to be harsh and unforgiving, then make it harsh and unforgiving. If you want it to be Hello Kitty Island Adventure, then make it so. But don't come up with dozens of arbitrary exception cases of what is OK and what is not OK. For example, at what point does a player stop being a noob anyway? 14 days? 21 days? What if he only actively played for 1 of those 21 days, is he still a noob? Is a noob someone who is clueless regardless of the time spent in game? By that logic I can claim all my losses should be refunded because I'm a noob too, when it comes to certain things. Etc., etc.

Bottom line, in this particular case, if the kid doesn't get his PLEX returned, he'll probably quit the game. Which also explains why the game is having trouble reaching even 500k subs. On the flipside, had this kid gotten the ISK for his PLEX and used ISK to buy a nice ship and then lost it - be it to suicide gankers, NPCs, lag/connection issues, etc., he'd probably quit as well. Which also explains why the game is having trouble reaching that same 500k subs. The only possible "happy ending" is the guy gets really lucky, doesn't make any mistakes, and sticks around long enough to learn enough not to fall for obvious things. It's the way the game is designed. I don't know why anyone would expect anything different.

Actually, yeah, I think EVE model is a good way to teach kids about life. It just depends on what you want in the end - a savvy kid or a naive kid who will soon be parted with his money (if any). It teaches risk management, resource allocation, basic economics, etc. In terms of education, EVE is way above average when it comes to gaming.


Frankly I wish I had EVE when I was growing up. Sadly when I was that age, ZX Spectrum was cutting edge technology...

Apperently everyone doesn't read the EULA, ESP the part that says, "Everything contained within is the sole property of CCP Games"

So, every ship/bullet/module/drone and *gasp* PLEX is "owned" by CCP and CCP only. The kid "lost" the $20 the moment he bought it from his acct management page.

Now, what if he undocked with it in his cargo hold, and he got ganked? Next half of you will be up in arms to ban the ganker!!!

Sure, the scammer was low and scammed a noob!
Did the scammer say ANYTHING in the "Help" channel?
No, he did not, he private convo'd him.
This happens ALL THE TIME with recruitment scams!

Tell the kid to suck it up and say "Welcome to EVE"

/thread

Okay, so anyone who is a kid that wants to sell a PLEX his mom got him is a noob. Is there anyone else that is a noob? How can you confirm that this person is a kid? Most kids online are instructed to not tell anyone they're a kid. And if kids are going to get special consideration, what's to prevent someone like me from pretending to be a kid?

I walk up to a man on the street and say "please let me borrow $20, I'll give it back to you", he gives it to me, and I never give it back.

Is it theft? Ethically, perhaps. Legally?

It would also be an effective waste of their time.

They don't moderate the forum or the in game chat. It's rare that they even use it.

So much miss-information posted with so much confidence.


"Scamming is part of the game, the only place it is not allowed is in the help channels. "

I hope you're trolling. By that way of thinking, every time someone blows up my ship I can take legal action against them. Derp

I feel sorry for the guy if(pretty big if)he's telling the truth, but scamming is part of the game. Also, it's not that hard to figure out that if you're putting a plex in a trade window, and the isk amount the other character has put in is ZERO, you probably shouldn't be expecting to get paid.

It's not CCP's or anyone's responsibility to make sure that people don't do stupid ****. By clicking accept on the trade window you are accepting whatever is in that exchange window. Same with the market, same with contracts.

If i were the OP, and I truly felt bad about what happened and new the person to be telling the truth, I'd just buy them a plex and show the other side of the EVE community to them.

I have found the flaw in your logic chain. The above statement is incorrect.

PLEX is an in-game virtual item...just like a 1MN Afterburner.

KB

I have lost 40 000 000 ISK in the first 14 days of this game to a scam. No one gave a **** about that, and me either. HTFU and L2P. Pirate tricked me into attacking his little ship and he got back with friends, he said he will stop shoting my ship for 300 000 000 ISK, and i believed, he grabbed the money and destroyed ship worth 500 000 000 ISK, I was like, oh well, better never do that again.

Will you cry?

Will you give me ISK?

Hold on, I don't need it, and never will. I have been like HTFU, and it worked.

Yes it would.

Wouldn't affect MY game one iota. However, I am not the type of person to request widespread, fundamental game changes in order to accomodate a handful of players who cannot fend for themselves.

KB

Was I the only one who thought perhaps this kid was scamming all of help chat....?

I would give him my middle finger. Real money is real money. And i learned, that you don't have real money in this game, even PLEX isn't real money. Its game item and can be traded, you can steal it, you can do everything with it in game, but you can't exchange it for money. It would be RMT.


PLEX is game item, not money, deal with it. The whole game is just what it is - a game, and i realised it when the pirate looked for loot in my wreck. The whole point to HTFU is to do what you want despite the problems, to think and stay vigilant, to achieve your goal in game finally. RW is real money, PLEX is just game item.

I get what you mean, but PLEX used to have a "special" status and CCP made the decision to relegate them to "in-game item" and I figure they did all of the legal and financial analysis necessary when they made that choice.

KB

Did the scam occur because the kid mis-read the isk amount in the trade window, or was it the trade window bug/trick (if that even still works)? If the latter, then the kid should be reimbursed and the scammer punished. Abuse of a faulty interface is not a legitimate scam imo.

For me no, But for others yes. They could not trade it for ISK on market when it would be removed, for as much ISK as the player is willing to pay for it, that's important, And players could not loot it, nor steal it.
It should stay as game item. Important game item.

Look, I'm sorry you feel bad, I sympathize with the victim in the same manner I sympathize with a noob that gets his first battleship blown up on accident or whatever, but your whole way of thinking about this is incorrect.

As soon as you redeem PLEX it is exactly like every other in game item. It is able to be sold, bought, traded, contracted, scammed, exploded, dropped, ect. Maybe that should be made more clear when you are purchasing plex if it isn't already(I haven't bought plex with dollars in awhile).

The system for a plex auction you are describing is EXACTLY what the market does already with the exception of it being "different" than the regular market window. 5 - 10 percent below top price obviously shows up, but you can sort by price so that isn't an issue.

You're right in that there isn't any good reason for this sort of thing to continue. That reason being people should be intelligent/diligent enough to not get scammed. It's not like anyone forced him to not take the time to understand what it was that he was doing. He didn't get tripped, slip, then fall onto the accept button. It's very much his own fault.

If I misread a contract and give someone a billion isk for one tritanium, should that be dealt with by CCP. You'll say no of course not, but plex is different. Well what if I bought a bunch of plex, sold that plex for isk, then gave a billion isk for a tritanium piece? According to your thinking should I not get my money I spent on the plex back??

Hopefully you see how your logic unravels?

EVE is the only MMO worth playing for more than a few weeks due to the fact that there are pretty real consequences to your actions. Sometimes people get taken advantage of, there's nothing to be done about it without ruining what EVE is. If you still feel that something needs to be done, then I suggest you do something about it, instead of asking CCP to change the game to your way of thinking without consideration to other people's thoughts.

Should they do it for all items too?

CCP allows all scamming minus character bazaar. They don't care if your a new player, if its done in public or private. Expensive lesson in scams.

"scientific proof?"

scamming clearly hasn't hindered the growth of this game considering that, well, it's grown

statistically, chances are people have quit because of the skill system, are you going to suggest that everyone starts out with all skills at 5?

No, it should not.

Held it back from what? This game has been active for close to 10 years with no decline, and EVE has 450,000+ subscribers between Tranquility and Serenity. I'd call that a success.

You don't have to be a 5 year veteran to see that a contract asking for 2 PLEX in exchange for 600M is a scam when 1 PLEX costs 550M. You don't have to be a 5 year veteran to figure out that the market is where the majority of stuff in the game is purchased, considering that the goddamn tutorials teach you how to use it, how to use contracts and have absolutely nothing on the trade window.

There's a huge difference between being a newbie and an idiot. I'm sorry if you thought EVE was a themepark wonderland where the developers hold your hand at every turn so that you don't fall over and bruise your knee, but that isn't what this game is about.

okay let's see here

1) new players aren't the only ones who buy PLEX
2) there is no way to tell who is a "new player" and an alt of a guy playing since 2003 and I doubt the "ban first, ask questions later" GMs go off checking that
3) every rule meant to protect "new players" has always ended up protecting older players, e.g. the recruitment channel rule which was, according to GMs, meant to "protect new players" while people were getting negwalleted for scamming 2006 idiots
4) considering that a newbie can buy a pile of PLEX and use that to buy a character off the market, that creates even more ambiguity

so yeah your idea is terrible, just learn how to use the market and stop asking CCP to hold your hand, don't worry, the rest of us managed to get through the darkness

They would have to pay people to do this, making it a colossal waste of money.

your argument is still "we need more kids playing eve online, an MMO for children"

Why not? PLEX gives people who don't want to pay real money the opportunity to pay with ingame money instead. they are also used to buy fanfest tickets & as a way to donate money to [insert major natural disaster here]. Can you come up with a good reason why they shouldn't be an ingame item?

PLEX become worthless, people no longer buy them with RL cash as making more ISK in game is easier and quicker.

Well done, you killed the PLEX market entirely, cut the user base by a third but its ok, because now 12 year olds will play.

You still don't get it. The plea for help in the Help channel WAS the scam.

There. Never. Was. A. PLEX!

This begging scam occurs every 5 minutes in most local channels. I can't believe you still don't understand that. All of this kerfuffle over PLEX is completely non-applicable to the original scam. I'm sure if the scammer new you've created this whole thread over his phantom stolen PLEX scam, I'm sure he'd be laughing his ass off.

LOL.

KB

If there was no PLEX involved at all anywhere in this scam....why would that warrant changing PLEX??

No one forces you to use a specific trade system ingame. It's your choice and you have to ensure, that you are doing it right.
There is no need for a special treatment of Plex.

It doesn't matter which one you use, every trade system in game has the potential for abuse. PLEX as an in game item is not "fun" it is not an exciting introduction for new players. The vast majority of them will seek to convert that PLEX into isk as soon as possible.

They should not be forced to risk that PLEX in order to do so. Honestly I think they shouldn't even have to use the market to buy ships, just give them a few for their money, let them get in and enjoy the pretty side of the game. They will discover and be vulnerable to the cold dark Eve soon enough.

They do not have to risk anything. All they have to do is read up some very basics and start making their brains work.

After a few seconds worth of brainwork they go to the nearest bigger trade hub, redeem their PLEX and either dump their PLEX to a buy order if they lack the isk for a sell order, or they place it as a sell order.

It's safe and you cannot get scammed out of your PLEX if you're doing it right. All that is required is a minimum effort. You're not seriously going to tell me, this little effort is being too much, are you?

It doesn't take years to figure out the number 0 does not equal 550,000,000.

It doesn't take years to learn the basics of buying and selling on the market. And the market UI is not THAT bad.

The only complicated thing at the beginning is to figure out the moment WHEN exactly to redeem your PLEX. That needs some simple brainwork when you do it for the first time.

Given that you can see the thing you are trading and the amount of isk you will be getting I fail to see how someone can mess up and blame it on the system.

First, we don''t know for sure that this is true. Greed is always needed for a grift to work.

Second, constantly changing systems to accommodate the lowest common denominator is never a good idea for longevity or quality.

Third, OP seems to start an inordinate amount of threads.....

You say people take advantage of the complexity to scam plexes off people. Yet when challanged you then say the very system that was used to supposedly steal the plex in question isn't complicated.

Your argument has crumbled. PLEX is fine as is and there are very safe ways of selling them already in game that are very simple to use.

You just invented a horrible isk injection system that will cause inflation that will do great harm to the game.

prohibiting plex scams isn't going to bring in more new players period, stop talking

It will cause more to stay.

The Plex system is not the problem. It's the lack of a real tutorial on the game.

New players come in, get basic training from the tutorial system and go on their way. Unless they know someone in game, they have very little idea how the game really works.
CCP needs to put actual useful information in the tutorial, things that pod pilots really need to know about the universe they live in.

How about a scamming tutorial? A spy tutorial? An alt tutorial.....

Do Goons have hangers full of PLEX with some idea of a way to hyper inflate the price of PLEX?

Oh, maybe just by making PLEX a bad buy for new players by scamming them, less PLEX will be bought and the return on the stockpiled Goon PLEX will be substantial.

Thats a neat idea. Is there any way to see what people have in their lockers? That would be a neat in game option. Spy nanopaste!

Got to be something more than just scam based inflation. It would be a great way to suck ISK out of highsec though.

hey, not to be mean...but you kinda forgot to switch chars when posting up there.

Don't feel bad, happens to the best of us.

Pretty juch all of our free PLEX come from people like this. The rest are bought off the market for special people, because they are really special to us.

I wouldn't scam a new player because there's not much worth to steal. I prefer people who should know better but don't.

Doing that would have very little effect on the cost of them. We resist this sort of change because it's a stupid idea that flies in the face of what EVE is. You want things to be easier so you don't have to put any thought in to anything that you do. PLEX is an in-game item & should remain to be treated as such. Buy a GTC instead if you want a safe option.

DISCLOSURE: I do not hold any PLEX (That I know of; haven't logged in for anything but skill training for a couple of months now).

EVE has a very specific, very focused direction. This is communicated in marketing for the game. The articles that surface in the gaming press cover a very specific aspect of that focus and usually exults in how horrid EVE players are to other EVE players. Ask any gamer out there about EVE and if they have heard about it the things you will hear back will cover Goonswarm, scamming / theft and the steep learning curve.

I dislike the idea of interventionist policies that seek to protect the stupid against themselves. Put a massive tax on McDonalds because some people eat it for three meals a day. Ban this, ban that because somebody is incapable of making a decision for themselves.

Keep that rot out of the game, please. PLEX is fine. The game is fine. You don't change it because another person failed to do even cursory research. That person being the kids mother who decided that he / she is allowed to play a game that embodies the concepts of EVE Online and supported them in that hobby financially without being there as a parent to either play with them or research the game first and arm her child with the tools to protect themselves.

.... The game is fine. You don't change it because another person failed to do even cursory research. That person being the kids mother who decided that he / she is allowed to play a game that embodies the concepts of EVE Online and supported them in that hobby financially without being there as a parent to either play with them or research the game first and arm her child with the tools to protect themselves.

Presumably you placed a bounty on the scammer then and dealt with him as an EVE vet should? No, wait. You came to the forums to try and get the game changed. My mistake.

No its you vs everyone else.

You're asking for a change because you heard about something that for all you know probably didn't happen. How does that make you right?

There are some protections against harassing the really new players, though I think the biggest and most bannable offense is shooting at them in their starter systems or tricking them into aggressing you. Scamming new players out of a PLEX is something one should probably avoid, just because you don't want CCP deciding that you're costing them more than you're providing. They can invoke the grey rule on you and ban you for just about anything that causes them grief.

As for the moral side of it, I don't pass judgement on those who scam. It is up to the individual to protect themselves from scams by paying attention to warnings and making sure they understand the impact of their actions. I think a new player is warned very early that their in-game items are temporary and can be lost. It is up to the player to read these messages and take heed.

If you feel bad for those who fall to these scams, you can do your part to help by scamming newer or less experienced players out of smaller things. Once they get used to the brutal nature of the game and the players within it, they will begin to be more careful. Also, experiencing the various types of scams will help them to know what to look out for. For best results, don't give them their stuff back, or only give them part of it back. The actual loss may do as much to teach them as having watched it happen.

so you're suggesting that CCP sell ISK outright

it's almost like you don't understand why PLEX exists and why CCP doesn't sell ISK outright

go think about that for a bit

because new players are obviously the only buyers of PLEX right

PLEX should still be an option in game. But it should be buried on the accounts page so that only veteran pilots will find it.

When a new player or his parents, grandparents, uncle, cousin, friend, want to spend extra money on Eve the option they first see available should be one that allows the new player in to Eve and gives them some time to look around and enjoy their experience here. That wont make Eve less dangerous or safe. It will make Eve more vibrant and profitable.

You guys are not going to find a secret agenda, I have none. I don't like business practices that drive away money and I don't like it when people manipulate facts for personal gain.

No thanks to P2W "safe" ISK from midair. Solves no problem, generates many.

Where do you draw the line? I can scam someone out of "safe" ISK for $$$ just as fast as I can scam a PLEX. We'd be hearing about "Mommy bought me $30 worth of ISK for my birthday and some mean person sold me a piece of Carbon that I thought was a Charon!"

Then he says:



Here's a shocker for you; Your idea would do exactly that. Advertising PLEX makes CCP money. Why would they stop doing that just because you heard about something that might not have happened?

The risk being an utter inability to work out that 0 does not equal 600,000,000.

There is (or was?) an exploit involving the trade window. I haven't used the trade window in years with a stranger, so I have no idea if it's ever been fixed. But people used to get scammed all the time due to a faulty interface, not due to their own mistake. Their 'stupidity' was in the fact that they were unaware of the bug/exploit itself.

Most people find the game more enjoyable having to earn their way. Buying PLEX & selling it on the market diminishes the whole experience & makes them less likely to continue playing.